Interesting that Hamilton has been penalised for his move at the Belgian GP. I’m one of the dissenters Adam mentioned in his blog, by the way. I think it’s harsh and maybe not quite fair, but I’m not surprised. He did a naughty thing and I blame Senna and Schumacher as much as Hamilton.
But more on that later.
When I saw that incident live, I – like many others, no doubt – shouted at the TV “you’ve got to let him through, you’ve got to let him through”, directed at Hamilton because he hadn’t made the corner and shouldn’t take advantage.
I shouted that because I really wanted Hamilton to win and not get penalised – I liked the way he was hunting down Kimi. And I’m a Kimi fan. Then I noticed that he’d not backed off enough. That he’d used the extra momentum and his car’s position to give himself a better chance to attack Raikkonen at the hairpin. And at that point I thought ‘sneaky little b*****d’.
I haven’t done much racing but I’ve done enough to know that you can’t get on the throttle at the same time as the car in front of you, if you’re right behind him. Logic dictates that you’ll pass the point you can apply maximum throttle slightly after the guy in front does, that he will be able to get on the throttle earlier, and he will therefore accelerate at a greater rate as you head down the next straight. In this case, the straight wasn’t long enough to allow slipstreaming to negate such a disadvantage.
What Hamilton did, in the split seconds between being forced to cut the chicane and rejoining the track, was decide that he would get his car straight, get on the throttle early alongside Raikkonen, ease off JUST enough to make it look like he’d eased off enough, then use his momentum to attack Raikkonen more effectively at the next corner. If you’re being hard and not-quite-fair (maybe), Hamilton should be penalised for trying that on. It was a cynical, devious little piece of race craft.
I’ve looked at it time after time, and I can’t think any differently. Sorry, everyone. It was the move of a cheat. Hamilton used the fact that he’d missed the corner, and used the position of his car, to gain an advantage over Raikkonen that he wouldn’t have had if he’d exited the corner behind the Ferrari on the racing line.
Hamilton has learned this sort of cunning from the likes of Senna and Schumacher. Especially the latter, who pushed the rules to the very edge whenever he could, then waited to see whether anything would be done about it. In this case, maybe Hamilton will think twice about such unfair play in the future. I hope so. He’s too talented to have to resort to cheating like this. Because I have no doubt – none whatsoever – that Hamilton was being unfair coming out of that corner. And deep down, I reckon he knows it too.
But it shows that Hamilton was a full 6KMP slower on that lap! hows is that anywhere near an advantage?! or cheating for that matter!
I have to agree with Bill Thomas here. Fully. You get 6km/h slower if you fight your opponent for ground, so that hardly speaks in his favour. It would have been fair if he wouldn’t overtake Kimi on the next corner. He’s still quite young, he could have won without that trickery and then the points would have been his.
i agree. ham cheated. No way would he have passed kim on that straight. He would have been on the power at last a car length behind even if he was touching kimi’s back wing. He simply had his can nice and staright, selected the best possible gear to keep up with kimi’s momentum. People that say that F1 is unfair to hamilton should remember how lightly he got off for raming kimi in the pits, causing an accident last year by driving like an idiot behind the safety car and so on. Seems like its Hamilton vs F1 lol
Surely any momentum that Hamilton had out of the corner was negated when he let off to let Raikkonen pass him. If both cars were on even performance Do you really think Hamilton would have been able to retake that place? We know that Hamilton was much faster at this point in the race, I wonder if people aren’t seeing this and confusing it with the so-called momentum.
So my brother is very clever. He reads the FIA rules quite regularly, and he’s discovered that, ‘As far as I can tell there is no official If-you-gain-an-advantage- cutting-a-chicane-give-th e-place-back-and-you’ll -be-ok rule. It’s a kind of gentleman’s agreement thing to do.’
Interesting no?
You can’t look at the 6 KMP. That differece is made on the entire lap and not on the busstop chicane. On the chicane Hamilton was in a advantage, otherwise he would’t get in front of Kimi in the next corner. The straight between the two corners is to short.
If, for example, Kubica was in the lead, Webber was second, Massa was third, and Lewis was fourth, and it was Webber, who pulled those moves on Kubica, and not Lewis Vs a ferrari, I don’t believe for one second that the result would have been questioned. Red Bull would have been allowed the win, and Webber would be the next Austrailian prime minister. Why? Because it would have looked good for the sport, to have a new winner, F1 could say, ” OOH LOOK HOW UNPREDICTABLE AND EXCITING THE SPORT IS THESE DAYS” and the result does not effect the championship or Ferrari. Lewis will have to win in another car if he wants a championship, on a year that Ferrari forget to put wheels on thier cars.
Thank you, finally i’ve met someone that shouted the same thing at the T.V at the time where he “backed off”. It was a sneaky move and the punishment is justified although it is annoying that the race results are decided after the race. But bring it on Monza!
TO hamcheat…. what the hell are you on about how was he driving like an idiot last year behind the saftey car? he backed them all up like everyone does all the time and its not his fault if the dumb aussie and german numpty can`t drive. shut up you bloody idoit
thank you! finally someone knows what they’re talking about! i have heard all sorts of rubbish overr the past two days, from online petitions to even threats of ‘boycotting’ the italian GP! all this has been blown totally out of proportion. you’ve got to ask yourself this: if it was someone else that got the penalty other than lewis, would there be all of this uproar? i think not.
At last, someone that has a clear view of the picture. Of course he was trying to cheat, if he wouldn’t then he wouldn’t have cut the chicane in the first place. But the real problem is, he can’t control himself.. If he would’ve been more calm, more mature, maybe he would’ve won anyway. But noo.. not Lew-ize.. he must behave like a spoiled brat everytime he is on the racetrack and make a fool of himself… Well, this time it didn’t work, my friend..
Whatthehell… He was driving so slow that the pack throught he had broken down, weeving like he had ants in his pants. Do you realy think if kimi and hamilton left the corner as they should have that hamilton would have been able to take him.. no way. even if he got into his slip stream it would have not been enough. He got an advantage end of. Also this with regards to 6 KM diff over the start finish straight. Do you realy think that the maclaren could catch up that sort of advantage even if hamilton lifted?? have a think
coup.. as i said lewis vs F1
FIA Formula 1 sporting regulations…. go read it idiots.
Normally i agree with you Thomas, but this time, i don’t. I think you have blurred the ground between being sneaky, and cheating, because they are not the same thing.
P.S. I’m a Hamilton fan, and a Ferarri fan, i really like Hamilton, the fact that someone that young can do so much. But i’ve been a ferarri lover sionce i watched Schumacher come through his career to obliterate the other drivers.
If you look at the final results before the penalty, Hamilton was 14seconds ahead therefore he had the pace to take kimi anyway. Also as he slowed down to let kimi pass then the McLaren must be set up for better acceleration, because the Ferrari should have blew past leaving Hamilton on the catch up again, but it didn’t fault with the car or poor driving from Kimi?
What about later on in the same lap when both Hamilton and Raikkonen went a bit off at Pouhon, Hamilton got right back on but Raikkonen stayed off to gain enough momentum to easily overtake Hamilton, by basically running him off the circuit at the next corner.
did anyone else notice how much the ferrari struggled to put its power down? It looked to me like it was wriggling all over the place. If Kimi had exited the corner more smoothly, maybe when Hamilton lifted he would have fallen much further behind? If this is the case, Hamilton would have been right up the back of Kimi coming out of the chicane even if he hadn’t atempted an overtake.
@ben: Just wach those 2 scenes again, and you’ll see the difference.. When Raikkonen came back onto the track he was quite far from Hamilton.. When Hamilton rejoined the track and ‘gave away’ his position, it really seems he had no intention to do that.. it was just as a pendulum- back and forth..
I can’t believe what I am reading here you lot are all saying Hamilton is a cheat, but ask your self this if things were reversed do you think that Ferrari would have been penalised. The answer to that is obviously no and the fact that Ferrari didn’t launch and official complaint into the matter after the race clear shows the stupidity of the FIA and their liking to giving Ferrari every bit of help they can get. The inconsistency is a joke, a simple example of this is what happened in the pits in Valencia and the drive through that Senna received in the GP2 race earlier that day at Belgium.
Hamilton knew what he was doing.Dont accuse fia of a Ferrari bias remember Schumacher monaco 06.Questionable Maneouvre demoted to back of grid
tbh whether it was sneaky and slightly unfair or not, the penalty was not justified, as the move had no effect on the final result. Also, there was so much dodgy driving from then until kimis crash that the whole matter should just be left alone. Under normal circumstances nothing should happen to Kimi. But if Hamilton is penalised for his move, then some of Kimis driving which was equally questionable should also be examined. The way he caught up significantly by running wide (http://uk.youtube.com/wa tch?v=dWNN5W_B-Zk) and the way he passed Lewis under supposedly waved yellow flags when they met the Williams. I think if one event is looked at, so should the rest. THIS is why it appears theres a Ferrari bias- the other questionable events weren’t even under investigation.
Your only a cheater if you get away with it!
Kimi at Monaco, crashing into the back of Sutil, no pen, Kimi at Spa driving off the race track for a couple of hundred meters no pen, just because he didn’t finish both races.
Hamilton lifted enough so Kimi could pass, then caught him napping like Monza last year, out braking kimi or having more confidence in the grip at the corner.
I’m not a N°1 fan of either drivers, I respect them in their talent.
But I too was shocked by the pen handed out, Kimi didn’t even finish, if he had finished in 2nd place then the pen handed to Lewis, wouldn’t be so outragous, its because of what lewis didn’t affect the race out come, thats why I’m hacked off!!!
becasue he did not finish the race matt
Hi Bill, intelligent article. Only problem is your wrong. Fact is that Hamilton was going slower than Kimi. This had to be the case for him to let Kimi past. Indeed, data shows Lewis to be 6kph slower than Kimi as they pass the start/finish line. The reason he was able to pass so quickly is that Hamilton was generally much faster in that phase of the GP. I am just not sure how you can “appear to back off”, without actually doing so. you either back off and go slower as a result, or you dont. However, I am not a racing driver, so maybe there is a way to let a car past and still be going faster than him – Zeno’s paradox anyone?
As has been pointed out already the fact the Hamilton recieved this penalty is actually irrelavent. The issue is the inconsistency is penalties. For example: Massa being found guilty of being dangerously released into the path of Glock. According to everybody the stadard fine for this is stop/go penalty. Yet he gets a paltry 10,000 Euro fine.
I actually think this was a 50:50 call by the stewards, and in that case Hamilton should be given benefit of the doubt. After all hundreds of millions of people saw the race, switched off the telly, only to find out later someone else had won – not good for the sport is it
meant drive throgh penalty, not stop/go….
ham cheat!!, so you can ‘cheat’ as much as you want if you don’t finish? At that point kimi didn’t know he would crash out, but he made a clear advantage. There should be a penalty for the next race regardless of whether he then crashes out cos he can’t keep the car on the track. Normally i dont think it would be a problem, but if you punish one debatable case, the other should at least have been looked at. If you say ‘kimi shouldnt be punished for catching up with hamilton cos in the end he crashed out anyway,’ cant you also say ‘hamilton shouldnt be punished for catching up with kimi cos his oponent crashed out in the end anyway, making any supposed benefit gained by hamilton void’?
Matt, good point, well made.
From what i could see, Hamilton was avoiding Kimi.
Kimi was losing it, Lewis was to close and used the run off to avoid him…but what does that matter when in the end Kimi binned it thankfully!
Completely agree with you matt. Kimi should maybe should get a penalty such as 10 spot grid penalty. Bottom line is Hamilton did not give the place back properly. He should have been patient. I am also finding out whether you are even able to overtake before the next 2 corners.
As I’ve said before – the event didn’t affect the result, why should the penalty? Leave it until next race for a grid drop.
The way it comes out now, it just looks like result fixing and that should be brought into question by the relevant authorities.
Kimi should also be penalised for the driving after the incident (both weaving in front of Hamilton before the first corner and driving off of the track to get better grip) – Mclaren probably wont be on the ball enough to dispute that though IMO, allowing them to get away with it.
I read all those comments and they are excellent, thanks for the responses.
I think it’s a shame it happened, but I’m also convinced that Lewis used the fact that he’d ‘missed’ that corner (or ‘been out-driven into and through that corner by Kimi’) to gain an advantage on the following straight. I don’t mind how you spin it after that, the argument about whether or not he deserved the penalty is one I can’t be bothered going into.
All I’m saying is that I think it was cunning/cheeky/sly and ultimately, I’m afraid, had the whiff of cheating to it… the move of a cheat. And Lewis should be above cheating.
Nail them fair and square, kid. It’s the only way forward.
To all who say Kimi gained ana dvantage by going off the track for a while then your wrong. Theres far less grip on the run off because its raining and no cars are running over it to dry it slightly unlike the actaul track, ergo no advantage gained. Also worth noting that there are onboard shots showing Hamilton does not break into the final part of the chicane. He easily could have breaked to avoid collision rather than cutting the corner in the way he did. He’s coming out with the same excuse as in Magny-Cours of “I led into the corner”. Also worth mentioning that when Hamilton mounted Alonso’s car in Bahrain he got no penalty for dangerous driving, which it clearly was. Instead McLaren churned out an excuse of ‘His wing broke, giving a sudden increase in downforce and therefore speed and Lewis did nothing wrong’ and there was no penalty for it. At the Nurburgring last year Hamilton was lifted back onto the track using a crane when it was clearly agains tthe rules. again no penalty. Biased FIA my arse.
In fairness theres a few thing sworth mentioning to avoid these incidents during races. Firstly, put Spa back as it was, the old bus stop was far superior to what it is now. Mainly though, get rid of the monstrous run off areas. If a driver makes a mistake I want to see him punished for it by getting stuck in gravel or going into a wall, not coming back on after using the run off. If there was gravel on the bus stop chicane Lewis would have braked to avoid contact with Raikkonen, or he’d have gone into gravel and most likely been stuck. Same with Kimi later on, gravel instead of run off area would have put him out of the race at that corner.
Well this is hard.
I’ve watched it to, over and over – and in the beginning – eventough a Kimi fan – I didn’t agree with the penalty Lewis got.
But indeed – and mind you, the delicacy is in something very small, cunning as hell.
After going of the track and coming back on it, Hamilton slows down to let Kimi pass but…not enough…he indeed gains an advantage, beyond any doubt – just as shumacher did in the youtube move posted above. He slowed down just enough to give the impression he slowed down enough: but truth is: he DID gain advantage and his car is in a better position than before en his engine momentum is at that point better than before they were steering in their first turn. There’s no denying: this is cheating. Very delicate, very subtile, very well played – but cheating nevertheless.
C’mon Lewis, you don’t need that.
If the penalty should be 25 sec. That’s another question.
..And YES YES YES I to think that FIA is not really consistent in their judgement.
Apart from all the fuss: thanx to the two drivers for the incredible titanic clash, best piece of racing, best battle I saw in a long, long long time.
A shame ferrari’s focus will go to Felipe Massa right now…
I’m very afraid it’s over for the remaining races. But then again is only 19 points behind. And he made up for 17 in the last two races last year!
So I’ll keep pleading, also for 2008: KIMI FOR PRESIDENT
Can I to remember the hardcore lovers of mclaren on the spyscandal last year? And how both driver DIDN’T GET PENALIZED? While they both knew and didn’t say a thing but surely enjoyed the advantage, and how their championshippoints weren’t taken? THAT’s unfair!!!
im a ferrari man hav bin all my life n iv seen all the moves 4m other racers b4, lewis is some pilot a magic driver but his youth is his problem he needs 2 tske his time a bit and evaluate things a bit more. this 6 kph thing is a load of balls if kimmi had of bin round the hair pin first then there would of bin no penilty for lewis n then there’s no dought in my mind that he would of won fair and square so its a bad case of youth over experance! and mcclearn are being punnished for the spy scanndle last year
once again, people saying kimi didn’t gain an advantage going wide, if you watch the onboard you can clearly see that at the end of the corner (which he isn’t really on) he is able to take a less tight line that allows him smoother and better acceleration. You can see that this gives him better drive that allows him to catch up to lewis. Either both drivers investigated and punished, or neither.
research shows that the rate of attention defesit disorder shoots through the roof while Lewis Hamilton is leading a race and also that the IQ of the british motorsport fan has dropped by 50 since they jumped on the Hamilton bandwagon.
I’m with Bill with this one, and i cannot be bothered to argue with moaners.
I think calling him a cheat is a little strong Bill. What most people are upset about is the inconsistency of punishments handed out by the FIA. Ferrari’s pittance of a fine for the Valencia pit lane incident versus Bruno Senna’s drive through for example. Maybe Hamilton was a bit sneaky but he was slightly ahead when he was forced wide, why should he lose all of that advantage by letting Kimi build up a lead again?
And again I ask why Kimi wasn’t penalised for his excursion at Pouhon? He lost nothing by going off track and looked like he actually gained by dare I say, cheating?
And before anyone slates me, I have followed Ferrari for 30 years although I want Hamilton to become champion, but above all I love F1 no matter who’s winning. And that’s the whole point, it’s the sport that’s suffered from this more than anything
Why are you missing the point.
Hamilton backed off and then gave kimi a dummy to overtake him. Cant you see that. It wasnt that simple to pass him which means that it ws done in a pure clean elegant and outclass racing fashion.
And in the wet just look at kimi being fooled there with it. Wow what a move. It wasnt cheating by a mile. It was superiority and then why didnt raikonen take the inside line to defend his line.
…
hahahahahaha he was doing exactly that but he was thrown a dummy. hahahahahahahahaha
its plane 2 see that mcclaren are being penilized because they cheated last year so any time they step out of line on the track this year its curtians! witch is a fair copp givin the fact that they are still in f1
I was not surprised that Hamilton was penalised, but would have preferred that it had been a fine or a grid penalty for Monza. As has been pointed out already, the move in question did not alter the outcome of the race, as Kimi took himself out the following lap. So i don’t think Hamilton deserved to lose the race for it.
I actually thought that Massa’s penalty in Valencia was quite sensible (again, it didn’t affect the race in any way, and Ferrari’s pit was at the end of the queue, so he wasn’t endangering any pit crews), and would have thought a similar penalty to Hamilton would have been more appropriate.
I agree that some of Kimi’s moves were equally questionable, and again should have been properly inspected afterwards, with a penalty carried forward. It works in other sports, where players are sanctioned by a tribunal in the week following a match but the outcome is not overturned unless it is seriously drastic.
My 2c,
Stuart Masson
Adelaide, Australia
you fight to win a race fair and square, then some pleb in an arm chair (may excluded) say “ah thats not right will add 25 seconds to his time.
what a plank, this was the most nail biting race in an eon and some wooolly back plank goes and chuck polatics at it. For me lewis let red barron threw then nailed him, red barron also fell of the track (lol) so hell, give it to cabbage patch. If ferrari win this year its a bit unfair. (understament)
Me thinks that since last year F1 is a bit bent on making sure McLaren win bugger all. What about all the previous years where Ferrari have ‘bent’ the rules and got away with it. Mind you I suppose we are lucky to see what happened as ITV put so many adverts in, I can see a GP in ten mins on Sky+ just by forwarding through the ads. Anyway I’m on a rant now, suffice to say what happened to Hamilton was a farce, Ferrari dangerous release in pits no race penalty, Lewis nothing dangerous and hey presto.
I didnt even see the race…and apparently it was a helluva race…
Personally F1 should just throw the damn rule book out the window…start over…
YES Hamilton should of been penalised, at the same time NO he shouldn’t of. Race stewards make the final decision, thats why they get paid the big bucks and we don’t. Its a close championship, they both drove well…Let It Be
its just a shame that massa- a man who never even challenged for the lead- will go down in record books as the winner of the most exciting race of recent years.
I’m sorry. But 6kmh is a massive amount of speed in an F1 car. most teams spend millions of pounds on little aero pieces to get that sort of speed out of it.
it might seem small. but that 6kmh is what proves to me that Hamilton had no advantage and that Raikkonen ended up being a bastard and braking early into LaSource and Hamilton could re-pass him.
On another note. It was Raikkonen involved in the incident in question. How does giving Hamilton a penalty now help in any way after the spoon crashed into the wall?
the issue here is that the decision’s in giving penalties differ from one team to another, we have seen many times that ferrari have got away with unsafe driving: Kimi running into Sutil and no penalty, massa with a 10000euro fine, the penalty is harsh as it should have been decided on the track, if the stewards don’t want any overtaking then they are in the wrong sport. The petitions are to overturn an unjust decision not just if you are a hamilton fan. If you believe the decision was wrong to strip lewis of his win then sign the petition online!
Simon…how rong u are. There is so mucm more grip on the outside.. Its called the karting line in the wet. The racing line has so much rubber layed into it. The outside does not hence alowing the outside of the track to have more grip. its a known fact..
According to this website “One top Stip tip is to break properly for the corners – slower, sometimes, is faster”
Didn’t Hamilton get some tutelage from a certain tame driving instructor this year?
Are we following the wrong conspiracy theory?
Where was Webber in all of this? Hold on a minute…
Bill Thomas is spot on. Hamilton tried to cheat right there, and was caught. It does not necessarily make him a cheat, though.
About the Kimi/Pouhon episode, afterwards one can say the extra speed worked against him as he became much closer of hitting Hamilton when the latter lost it for a second. And with Hamilton sideways, Räikkönen would have passed him anyway. Guess that’s why it was not questioned.
I would also like to point the number of directional changes done by Hamilton on the way towards Les Combes… 2? 3?
This 6 kmh speed gap argument is bullshit. He could get past because he could cross his trajectory, gaining the inner part of the curve faster than Raikonen, who was moving on the standard trajectory. This only as a consequence of cutting the previous curve. It was a clear cheat.
It’s not about what speed Hamilton was going or that Raikkonen passed when he was getting out of the way of a Williams or that Raikkonen crashed. He gained 15 or 20 metres in the process which means he should be punished for gaining an advantage. Also Fernando Alonso was punished in Japan 2005 for exactly the same move on one of the Red Bull’s. If Fernando gets punished why shouldn’t Hamilton. He’s nothing special. People should just accept desicion and stop comlaining about the stewards “being biased”. There not. Hamilton escaped punishments many times which should have been made.
“However, I am not a racing driver, so maybe there is a way to let a car past and still be going faster than him – Zeno’s paradox anyone?” – says Jamie above.
This is all that needs to be said – if you don’t get it you’re quite simply stupid. Or you wear a tasteless/overpriced red jacket. Maybe both.
These are the simple facts:
1. Lewis absolutely gained an advantage and knew full well what he was doing. It was a dirty trick. Whether this was a simple error in judgment or a display of Lewis’ arrogance (à la Schumacher) is another question.
Lewis deserved the penalty.
2. The reason everyone is crying foul is the issues with the FIA handing out inconsistent penalties, especially when it comes to Ferrari. Here’s the thing though; that doesn’t make Lewis’ penalty any less deserved! He needed to be made an example of to prevent future uses of that tactic.
Had a Ferrari did what Lewis did, I’m convinced there would have been no penalty. Yes, the FIA is biased and I hate Ferrari as much as everyone else who’s even mildly ethical. But let’s reiterate: the FIA’s bias is another issue altogether. Lewis made a dirty move and got what was coming to him.
hamilton did not cheat.
he cut the chicane to stop a crash which would have been dangerous and stupid. if he hadn’t cut then he would have slid on the curb and taken out raikkonen.
raikkonen was ahead over the finish line and then blocked hamilton twice (which is also illegal). he then hit hamilton on the chicane of the first corner.
If hamilton were to be given a penalty at all it should have been the same as Massa’s in valencia which was much more dangerous.
Come on – there are clearly two points of view here. I’m the bloke who wrote the blog with the opposing view to Bill and like anyone in the Hamilton camp I’ve been accused of being biased. Thing is, Lewis is a bit manufactured and comes across a tiny bit (oh, all right then, very) arrogant for my tastes. But I do think he’s been treated harshly.
And I absolutely will not concede that he cheated. He’s a racer who took advantage of a situation – but not a cheat. Schumacher turned in on Damon in the championship decider and then tried the same trick on Villeneuve the year after. And he planted his car across the track at Rascasse in Monaco to halt qualifying two years ago. Senna eventually admitted having deliberately taken Prost out at Suzuka. I think the world agreed at the time that these were examples of at worst cheating and at best poor sportsmanship. I dont think what Lewis did, or indeed what he might have done in the past comes close to what Senna and Schuey were capable of. Cheating suggests deliberately flaunting the rules. Thats not what we saw on Sunday…
raikonnan was going 6km/h faster than hamilton as they crossed the line. this shows that hamilton did not use the momentum (as he lifted off) and only gained the place through raikonnan veering off the the outside line (to stop hamilton getting in his slipstream) letting hamilton take the inside line.
Raikkonen crashed anyway!!!! so hamilton would have taken raikonens place even if he backed off more! this is a blatant example of the FIAs blatant bias against mclaren. i just hope hamilton proves himself by winning the championship…..if he is allowed to that is.
Total Nonsense!! This is just as ridiculous as the decision made by those incompetent stewards. I’ve notice that some people who think the penalty was right, doesn’t know what that unfair advantage was. The unfair advantage gain by Hamilton on cutting the chicane (which he did to avoid a potential collision) was ONLY THE LEAD POSITION, of which he IMMEDIATELY SURRENDERED by lifting off the throttle and letting Raikkonen retake the lead position. There is no official ruling that the car should be on a certain distance from the car been let to regain the lead nor the use of slipstream even though there is no slipstream involved.
http://www.autosport.com/ news/report.php/id/70443
That report is quite interesting in all of this.
I think those who are saying that Hamilton should have gotten the penalty should read that article. Although i think i know exactly the sort of response that’ll come from it.
hamilton was smart, he gave back the advantage and had less speed on the lap, from every neutral angle it seems that he was just the better tactician over raikonnen. Hardcore ferrari fans just need to let off a little, i personally saw no problem with the move but the penalty has been awarded, whats done is done. Why doesnt everyone shut the hell up and look forward to whats coming next… Monza here we come.
PS. julian… that link should be read by all sceptics
what is all this rubbish about being sneaky. Fact was, lewis had to cut the chicane or he would have taken himself and kimi out the race. he then slowed down and let kimi pass. kimi then weaved left and right at turn 1 whilst braking and lewis out braked him, took him down the inside in a neat move and then kimi tried to munt his car or puncture lewis. lewis did not gain momentum as he had to slow down to let kimi pass. no way did he cheat and deserve any penalty and as NIKI LAUDA described the decision, it’s the worst judgement ever made by the FIA in the history of the sport.
watch the analysis video. it is fantastic evidence
McLaren have nnow made an official complete, and apparently they asked the race stewards twice if Hamilton had sufficiently given the place back, and they were told it was ‘okay.’
it was okay. if you cant race like that in f1, perhaps you aint allowed to overtake anybody anymore. kovaleinen tried and failed aswell to pass webber. if you overtake somebody, you will be penalized
amdbs is spot on. i am a lewis fan and want him to win the title over the ferrari scum but im not up his arse like james allen and i can also call a decision fairly. i must be mad if im wrong about this. please alert me if i am mad but i know what is fair and what is cheating.
if i said lewis cheated, what grounds or evidence would i have.
Finally something worthy talking about in F1.
For me it is a great shame that:
a/ the deserved winner was stripped of the win,
b/ that Kimi tanked his car (he deserved 2nd place),
&
c/ instead of talking of how great the last laps were and reminising on great battles gone by everyone is nit picking over a steward’s decision.
Thank you to both Hamilton & Raikkonen for providing a much needed injection to the spirit of battle lacking in formula 1 for well over a decade. They both showed exemplary driving skills to remind us all of why we watch F1.
The only conclusion to be drawn from this mess is that the FIA should look at deliberately and randomly watering parts of the track during races. It’s surely the only way to put the racing back into F1?
Having followed formula 1 for over 30 years its starting to get interesting. Just like Montoya Hamilton is exciting to watch. However it appears that he doesn’t fit into the F1 mould …
Here is another point of view chaps could it be because he is coloured and we know Max’s family history ??? (just my opinion … and I’m not coloured, racist or biggoted) Have a level playing field, consistent rules and independent judges and let the fastest man across the line win be it in a red, silver, green, white or blue car
Hamilton is innocent
I cant belive that when kimi crashes into the back of sutil in monaco he didnt get any penaltys , but as soon as hamilton trys anything the FIA penilize him. As long as Ferrari are winning the FIA are happy.F1 should not be about politics or making as much money as possible it should be about the sport.
I think the theory in this blog is mainly a load of s**t, okay, yes the consartina is correct. But if you watch the footage Hamilton goes for a gap on the inside on the left corner and final corner of the chicane which kimi closes.This in turn forces Lewis to take to the Martini run off area avoiding any sort of collision. Had the gap remained open Lewis may have made the move stick or atleast been able to apply the throttle along side Raikkonen possibly at the same (time grip dependant). Lewis overtook on the outside so he would have the inside line for the run out, very clever move imo.
Then after deliberately going slower to allow Kimi through before crossing the line (vital to follow the rulebook) he outbrakes, let me repeat outbrakes Kimi.
No i’m not talking rubbish either, Nikki Lauda has also stated to Radio 5 live ( highlights available on ITV-F1 site ) that this is the case.
To say Hamilton cheated is outrageous he is probably one of the fairest and most talented drivers on that grid, similar to Kubica understandable as they raced together at a younger age.
I do agree that Hammy should be penelised, but I thought it was kinda unfair that he got the drive though penalty, which he couldn’t serve because the race was over. Perhaps a grid penalty for Monza is more just?
For God sake let the racing be decided on the track and not decided by people who apparently dont fully understand the term “racing” . What we say on sunday was some utterly brilliant driving from some amazing drivers. What was Hamilton supposed to do??? He phyiscally dropped directly behind Kimi after being in front, how much room was he meant to give him? How far behind did he have to drop? What Hamilton did was race and that is something he does superbly. Congratulations to the fella for an amazing win (although he was cheated out of this he still won on the track) bring on the next race I will be rooting for him all the way!!!
Well in my opinion [as a racing enthusiast and mechanical engineer working in the field of vehicle dynamics] forced or not, cutting the chicane gave him an advantage, which he never truly nullified. The problem is not that he gave kimi 6kmh [which is useless in a single short straigh compared to a full race length] the problem is that if he wouldnt have cutted the chicane he would have been a lot further away from kimi, alowing kimi a fair oportunity to defend his place at turn 1
On the issue of the lack of consistency on the penalization. I think the stewards [which change on each race] showed a lot of consistency: the first penalization was “awarded” to heiki as a drive-through, the second was to glock, as a 25 second penalty also after the race, so the last one was Hamilton again as 25 seconds.
Now if those 25 seconds seem too arbitrary think this: if the glock and hamilton incidents would have ocured earlier the stewards would have given both of them a drive-through, but as the race was over the only way to produce the same outcome was to increase their final times by the aproximate time a drive-through last [25 s]
BTW i would say that it was very important to give hamilton the penalization as the alteration of the results not only gives massa the 10 points for 1st place, but also gave heifield the 8 pts for 2nd. Remember that a F1 is not only about who gets first
Martin Whitmarsh added: “From the pit wall, we then asked Race Control to confirm that they were comfortable that Lewis had allowed Kimi to repass, and they confirmed twice that they believed that the position had been given back in a manner that was ‘okay’.
“If Race Control had instead expressed any concern regarding Lewis’s actions at that time, we would have instructed Lewis to allow Kimi to repass for a second time.”[1]
This shows that another mistake is beingmade by McLaren.
Why are they appealing to the FIA. Why not appeal to the criminal court and file a case against the Mosley brothers. Again, they would still end up being the ones at loss.
Reference:
[1] McLaren lodge Belgian Grand Prix appeal
(http://www.formula1.com/ news/headlines/2008/9/834 4.html)
cheatttttttttttttttt!
I Think every ones missed the big point, even if lewis gained the advantage kimi later took the lead and crashed on his own account. thus its all academic he was handed the lead by kimi crashing Not from cutting the corner. (i think he was pushed off the track by kimi legally so its all a pointless argument)
Lewis won BECAUSE Kimi crashed.
Lewis cheated, end of! Ron Dennis should’ve told him what can do & can’t do when he had everything paid for him & baby sitted him, this is what happens when are given the “Easy Way” into F1, he’s just like those lot off X-Factor….Everythings done for him.
If any of you guys had driven anything faster than a pram — You might realise that at the kind of speeds in F1 – there is little time to plan a “cheating” manouvre in the way that Lewis has been accused of – the reaction is to avoid a collision and get past the other guy – no win in a pile up is there ??
I’m a Kimi follower and dont agree that Ham should have had the win taken away, firstly crossing the chicane was done to avoid hitting Kimi in the ass, also dare i say it the iceman couldn’t handle the heat from Ham when it started raining, Why take away the win when Kimi crashed out?
furthermore every fan had to have enjoyed the last few laps thats racing seems the FIA dont want the races to be exiting just boring as 75% of the years races were!!
i agree with pest
For God sake this is getting rather boring, Hamilton this, Hamilton that give it a rest please!
I dont think hamilton cheated.The thing about regulation is that you have to consider,when you apply it,if the driver in question intended to cheat,or ilegaly create an advantage,or if he had to resort to breaking the rules to stay on track.Hamilton was forced to cut the corner as a result of his battle with Kimi but he didnt get in front of him on the straigt,he even went behind him.The rules say that if you re forced to cut a corner,when you get back on the track you must retake your previous position.Hamilton did that,therefore he didnt cheat and its sad that formula one has lost all its competition.I advise you to search on youtube for the villeneuve arnoux battle or the battles between senna and prost.you ll see what racing should be like.
its all academic anyway
Kimi crashed out and so handed Lewis the lead by the end. Kimi was involved in the penalty and so any advantage he would have gained by Lewis being penalised was nullified by himself crashing.
I thought the Finns were ment to be good rally drivers.
going back to Dens comment
there is no way that you can say that everything is done for him. He is the one sitting in the cockpit and is one of the fastest drivers out there. If things are paid for for him then there is nothing wrong with that. There is no easy way into F1. If you are no good then you don’t get in.
And I cant imagine lewis doing a bad cover of any song !!!
to be honest the arguements of hamilton still having momentum from the corner are incorrect due to the fact that he was slower by 6kmph therefore he had less momentum than kimi. he only managed to catch kimi because as you cd see kimi was being too cautiouson the wet and didnt get on the throttle as soon as hamilton. also handing massa the win well after the race had finished sorta takes out the race all together shouldn’t have the podium stage at the end until the old race officals give the ok and then im sure the red car will always go up a few places just 4 good measure. F1 isnt true racing nemre ive found moto gp so much more excitin than this also the riders arn’t as up their own arses have a look at moto gp its the best. ha none of you car nuts beat me up now.
In those last few laps one of them had to crash out, the track was far to wet for dry tyres and neither kimi or hamilton were going to back down, it just so happened that when push came to shove kimi lost his cool and ended up in the batrrier, I was at the race and I have to say i couldn’t have asked for a better race, this was by far the best race i have ever witnessed. Hamilton won the race, I know he did I saw him on the podium.
If there’s no rule about cutting a chicane off, maybe the other drivers should do “donuts” over the finish line, 52 donuts, and they would finish the race in first place!! Great…. It is always about how the FIA and the F1 team is against Lewis…. move on…
Hamilton should rejoin at the rear end of raikkonen car after the shortcut corner,he ended side by side with kimi even its a 6kmh slower its still advantage for hamilton thats y he got penalised.
I for one was outraged when i heard that night on the news that Lewis had been given a penalty, however, i was not at all surprised as i’ve felt for a long while that the FIA have a vendetta against McLaren.
I’ve read hundreds of posts about gaining an unfair advantage, about Lewis driving 6kph slower than Kimi, i’ve seen all sorts of footage and my honest opinion is this, coming into the chicane they were side by side, Kimi didn’t have to let Lewis through and held his line, maybe even forced him wide, that is racing for you. Lewis did cut the chicane and instantly my mind went back a few races when he done a similar thing and recevied a drive through as on that occasion he gained a place which is unfair, so therefore i was insanely yelling at him to yield his position. So when Kimi crossed the line first and that Lewis was completely behind him i felt that Lewis had acted in accordance with the regulations. However, the stewards decide to bring in a grey area. Once you have yielded the place and you are BEHIND the car in question, surely the matter should end there, whether you are in the slip stream, or if you have better tyres or a faster car, The bottom line is, that while racing it is totally impossible to know just how far you need to let the car in front get away, Lewis could have left a second gap and still could have been deemed to gain an advantage. McLaren asked race control if the manouvre was suitable, and twice they said it was OK. At that stage, it should have been matter closed!! And Lewis is not a cheat, he is just an enthusiastic racing driver.
Isn’t the real question: Did Hamilton put himself in a superior position after cutting the corner than if he had taken the corner correctly?
Irrespective of whether Hamilton had backed off the throttle or whether he was slower over the line; his offence gained him ground in that he ended up alongside Kimi whereas had he taken the corner correctly he would have been several meters behind.
He might have been able to overtake Kimi anyway – but he might not have. That’s the point.
So I guess it would have been better for Lewis to have stayed on track and have a collision with Kimi then?
Ham did not cheat end of
I watch it over and over again. Still think Hamilton didn’t try to slow down and make the corner. Instead, he try to cut the corner and keep momentum.
If so, imagine he didn’t cut the corner, will he still able to pass Kimi at the hairpin?
Obviously The guy that posted this didn’t watch the race if Hamilton hadn’t cut the chicane he would of hit kimi raikonnen and they would of both spun out Hamilton lifted and gave the position back and out braked the ferrari into the first corner because the ferrari was a bit nervous in the wet. If u still have the video of that move i sugest u watch it again. Especially the people who said he should o f braked because jimi was coming across and would of hit him and end of their race. SO Hamilton shouldn’t of been penalised END OF DISCUSSION.
No question Hamilton was in the right, but the FIA are pro Ferrari and anti McLaren so the end result was inevitable.
Come to think about it, why wasn’t Kimi penalised for nerfing Hamilton after he got past?
It might be very difficult to acheive but I think that everbody should boo Ferrari at Monza and at every other race until this travesty is overturned.
For all you to be shouting cheat is rediculous. None of you have the ability to do so please. Both drivers were racing hard and fianally we got a good show out of F1, been a long time coming. Hammilton backed off and let kimi back past job done. To then penalise him for it after is rediculous. Maybe they should relook at schumacers races.Blatent stuff there like not Responding to a black flag at british gp, Deliberatly ramming Hill to win title. Or Senna and Prost both of whom admitted deliberatly crashing another drive to win the title. The FIA are all over the place with whats good and whats not and CASH is the main factor in it all. After 30+ years of watching F1 enough is enough. I wont be tuning in again, if i want politics and bordom ill watch parliment TV
The FIA have always found in favour of Ferrari and it’s making the sport a shadow of it’s former self.
F1 is not a sport anymore, it’s all about team politics.
It’s a shame that the other teams didn’t form the breakaway league for 2008.
After the FIA’s latest crazy decision, for me that was the straw that broke the camels back. I for one won’t be watching this Sunday’s race.
Simon i totally agree with the last part of your post regarding gravel traps and run off areas.
Kimi’s back end was squirming all over the place whenever he went near the accelerator. Given the circumstances Lewis used his superior car in those conditions to put pressure on Kimi and it ultimately caused his downfall.
But it was not cheating!
P.S. Had both of them crashed into Rosberg would there have been a penalty for either of them?? i think not!
Im really the ferrari guy but i dont think Hamilton cheated.So i have to protest for McLaren this time.If Hamilton didnt do that then he could have actually tore Raikonnen’s nose off, or cause some damage and none of them would have won in the first place.
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It seems many people doesn’t (want to) see a difference between cutting a chicane (deliberately) to get the advantage and being pushed out while driving in parallel with he other one who would do anything to defend his position…
And, is there really nothing in the rules to prevent risking the crash and put other racers in danger?! As hamilton was already in front of Kimi, who released the brake and turned a bit to the left, just to try to prevent unavoidable…
Shame on Kimi for that, and shame on the others who approve such “racing” (including some F1 racers, who approve FIA stewards decision – I sincerely hope Kimi will push one of them out at the one of the following races, I wonder if they will still keep the same principle of judging if it will be their ass, in particular if it will be put in danger by such maneuver)!
Exactly LUTi, most people are saying that Hamilto cut the chicane so he could cheat it was Kimi who pushed him off of the race track. If you watch it again you can clearly see the Ferrari pushed him off, no hamilto had two choices; brake rreally hard and no matter what go into Kimi, or cut the chicane. He chose the later. Obviously this did give hi an advantage in the begining, however, he gave up this place by GOING SLOWER THAN KIMI!!! If Kimi was full throttle he would have been able to pull away from Hamilton but Hamilton got behind him and used his slipstream to gain speed. THIS ISN’T ILLEGAL. Hamilton then used his greater skill in the wet to pass the nervous and frightened Kimi in the next corner
Why cant more people understand LUTi??
*Edit*
Hamilton didn’t even use Kimi’s slistream on the straight he only used his greater skill in the wet to be faster and better. Also what about Kimi taking Hamilton because of the Williams car blocking the racetrack, granted Kimi span and then Hamilton went through but I think that was a bit unsporting, taking a car when another car got in it’s way. Screw you Kimi!!!
Well if Hamilton was unfair Kimi then went wide on the next corner, if not the next the one after and built up his speed on the runoff area so that he could gain extra speed and then get up behind Hamilton again. Is that not gaining an advantage?? Also say if Hamiltion didnt try to overtake until after the corner he would have then overtook Kimi as Kimi would have got stuck behind Rosberg and not Lewis. Finally it wouldnt have really mattered if Kimi was infront or behind because as you know full well he then crashed
Also another thing. Say for instance that it was Lewis infront and Kimi behind at the chicane. Kimi cuts corner gives the position back and over takes into next corner. I bet if that was the case the stewards wouldnt have even thought about given a penalty and if they did it would be a fine which any driver of there level could pay with ease.
Like the case with Massa in Valencia when he had an unsafe exit from the pit which it clearly was. As you could see there could have been a serious accident blocking the pits and they only gave him a 10 grand fine.
In my opinion and many other people will proberly agree is that these stewards are biased whether its to do with Ferari favortism, The fact that Hamiton is English or coloured or any other reasons it dosnt matter its still very biased.
Two last comment for now is the fact that it didnt say in the FIA rule book that they have to wait to the next corner or be behind someone a certain amount of time before you can overtake again. The wait until the next corner rule didnt exist until Monza which proves a bit unfair as Hamilton didnt know this in the race before. I find that rule a bit stupid because what if the corner then goes on to a very long straight like the one after la rouge at Spa. This will be out of order because then the person infront is gaining an advantage bacause he has no risk or the person behind overtaking again. And it will be a pain if the person infront is alot slower which you could then have the risk or someone then overtaking you which again gives the driver infront an advantage again.
Finally back to the Massa incident in Velencia. Massa gets a fine which is the best penalty a driver could have for a start whereas Hamilton had the worst knowing that he has won and 2 hours later he is dropped to 3rd. How annoyed and upset would you feel in that position. A desision should have been made before Hamilton lifted that trophy. Also at Valencia it is impossible to overtake so a drive through, stop and go or a time penalty for Massa would at least have gave someone a chance to even overtake and at Spa where its easy to overtake, as Hamilton and alot of other drivers proved, Lewis then gets a time penalty 2 hours after the race. Surly a fine would have been better for that race as anything could happen overtaking wise.
To call Hamilton a cheat is totally idiotic. Does no-one realise that these actions take place in split seconds of time and moves such as this are rarely planned in advance! It seems that the Hamilton knockers conveniently forget all the incredible driving that he did to catch Raikkonen in the wet. You only have to compare him against Raikkonen at yesterday’s Italian GP. Hamilton moved up to as high as second whereas Raikkonen stayed more or less where he started! Get a life and back a British car and driver.
Hmmmm…Frankie,does a F1 car not have a steering wheel?How do you possibly draw the conclusion that Lewis only ended up on the inside of La Source because he cut the corner?Doesn’t overtaking in F1 usually involve just that,overtaking on the inside?So surely every time someone completes an overtaking manoeuvre,they’ve cut the previous corner?
okay, he was lees speed of 6kmh, but all of us know in half a second it can be gained back. the acceleration of these cars are fast. any driver could lift off the gas a bit, but after the finish line, he could floor it and whola, you’re as fast or faster than your opponent(if your opponent does floor the trottle a bit slower than you.
he almost got away with it, but he did not cheat. a cheat would be senna-like or shumi like tactics.
but when kimi crashed, even if a ferarri fan, i accepted that ham should win, and not be taken away, because i saw racing and the racecraft of each driver. it meant that it didn’t affect the result(nick and massa were not even contending for that lead)
point
-ham did not cheat, but almost got away with a deceptive move punishable but a bit harsh since the two drivers ahead of him in the race result didn’t even challenged him for the lead)
-ham should’ve still won(because kimi crashed out)
-and the 6kmh less is not a good basis(he might have been a little slower, but if kimi was doing 210, he’s doing 204 after lifting a bit, then he could floor it and regain the disadvantage. and kimi moved offline which caused him to lose the lead)
i sure have hoped massa would have gotten the win properly and not through the boardroom.
im a ferrari fan that belives ham should’ve won but almost got away with it with a decieving move which has to be penalised not harsher than a fine or a 10s penalty, the way things are going for the inconsistent fia punishments
I reckon he got poor traction on the run-off area, had little grip, kimi went past, and that were that
And Hazy Boy, if you think using another car to overtake is unsporting, you know nowt about f1, because people do it all the time. see hakkinen 2000, spa.
I think ill watch more Indycar instead,, and less F1 and this B.S noise in Who did Who and Who did What EGO TRIPing nonsense..
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