‘Man or machine?’ is the age-old question in Formula One. How can you really tell who or what is making the difference? No one will ever be able to answer it convincingly enough for everyone to be happy, but truth be told, it’s always a bit of both.
Martin Brundle put it brilliantly during the Beeb’s pre-race coverage at the German GP on Sunday, when he was talking about the updated McLaren MP4-24 of Lewis Hamilton.
McLaren had been working flat-out behind the scenes back at the factory in Woking, in order to get the new pieces ready for last weekend’s race.
They provided Lewis with a new front wing, side pods, engine cover, floor and rear diffuser, all helping to improve on the elusive downforce.
The upgrades, which basically turned the car into a B-spec version, helped Lewis to find around eight-tenths of a second per lap.
A huge improvement by anyone’s standards.
And although this adds weight to the ‘car not driver’ side of the argument, Lewis, as Brundle put it, gained confidence, which allowed him to drive the car harder, which improved the downforce, which made the lap times better. And so on.
This is something the Red Bull drivers have found too. The better the car is, the better Mark Webber and Sebastian Vettel are able to drive it.
Jenson Button on the other hand, seeing the improvements of those cars in front of him, would start to lose a little faith.
Yet that won’t last long, as Brawn will be bringing new parts to their aero package for the Hungarian GP in two weeks, so the tussle at the front will continue.
As will the car vs driver argument.
Which can only be a good thing for us, as we’re going to have a great battle for both the drivers’ and constructors’ championships.
Although surely it’s too much to hope for a down-to-the-wire finish three years on the trot?
We can but pray.
Last year Lewis had a better, more aerodynamic car.This year Lewis had a poor car because of the rules;after every race he had a better more improoved car but no luck.
And without the trction control all of the drivers has a more control of the car not the electronic stuff doing what the driver has.
Example of the driver skills 80’s.
I was to the GERMAN RING’ and going to the HUNGARY RING’.
And THE real STIG is not Schumy i’m sorry.
Its always gonna be a bit of both, but a truely good driver could make a substandard car look good. Look at Senna in the Toleman at Monaco or Schumi at Spain in ‘96, it just show’s that bad cars can be driven well, but then again good cars can be driven badly, hmmm…
..and also Tazio Nuvolari stuffing the Auto Unions in a vastly underpowered Alfa at the ‘Ring, not to mention Stirling Moss in the Lotus 18 at Monaco ‘61. In F1 the best car in the world won’t prop up an average driver, but amazing drivers can sometimes work wonders with lesser kit.
Well, a good way to find out if it is the car or the driver, is to get more F1 stars, in the reasonably priced car!
All we know so far is that Lewis Hamilton is better than Jenson Button and Mark Webber.
Come on Top Gear, we need more current F1 drivers on!
Surely this is the whole point of Formula 1?? The fact that a fast car is the product of the team building a good car and the driver inside driving well? As Ben A says above, it is always going to be a mixture of both and you’ll never fully tell how much is due to car or driver.
Something I would never want to see in Formula 1 is the drivers all in the same car…
Well said Mr_T! Are you listening Bernie? WE DONT WANT ALL THE SAME CARS!
The star in a reasonably priced car isn’t a scientific way of measuring the driver’s skill, as the weather is always different, meaning the temperature, grip and aerodynamics are different for each driver, and tyre wear etc are also different..
This is all decided in the race of champions. Same cars, Same track, One on One. Last year’s winners were Seb Vettel and The Stig (literally)
look at what Kovalainen did in the “A” spec car except for the front wing. He qualified only one place below Hamilton with more fuel
Come on people, Its the car it always has been. Only the turely great Drivers Senna, Prost,Hill, Alonso and Michael Shumacher have driven cars that have proformed well quickly and cars that have performed fast very quickly just look at there team mates… all have had a good few drives but never shown consistant greatness.
S. Kendall, true he managed to get a sixth place, but if you look at the times the drivers qualified in in Q2 and Q3 at last weekends GP, you would see some quite extraordinary gaps between them. Lewis was quite close to the top, Kovaleinen was not. And if Kova last year, where they had pretty similar cars, were to be better than Lewis, how come it was Hamilton who won and Kova being far away from the championship?
I like Kovaleinen, but claiming or insinuating he’s the better of the two is just slightly over the top.
Besides, you could see pretty easily in the actual race that Kovaleinen had been lucky in qualifying. He went from 6th to third due to kers before the first turn, but then slowly tundled down to 8th and only just managed that.
that car is shit
IMHO bad weather clearly differentiates the better drivers.
But great drivers develop great cars. Schumi went to Ferrari when it was crap. He put together the team, aproved every new guy and made some other useless burocrats go. Sure, Todt was there, but Schumi brougt Brawn with himself. And then worked his ass off all year round. Built the car for himself, and made history.
I never liked him, he was boring, but he was the best F1 driver ever, because all what he did Monday to Saturday. And yes, he was kind of fast also…
When the car is good, the driver automatically wins, then when the car falls behind the driver needs to be good to continue being on the podium or in 4th. From his performance during this diff period the team can re-correct and develop the car, so the driver can win. I don’t think any current driver really is that kind, the last one was M Shumi. Alonso could have been like that if he was winning this year.
TO THE STIG. michael shummacher is the stig because on episode 4 this serios the celabrate in the reasonbly priced car said on the LAP in car (quote)”do what shummacher said”
WELDONE TO FELIPE MASSA IN GERMANY BYE GETTING ON THE PODIUM.
GO MASSA!!!
The Driver is responsable for Throttle, steering,gearchange and Breaking.If he misses an Apex, or doesnt floor it on the straight, the car will never be as fast,as it could be.No matter how good it is.
The Car ,on the other hand, is responsible for giving a driver the confidence to do all this as fast as possible.To give him the feedback,of how fast it can go, without spinning off.Its his platform,his fundament.If it is flawed, he can t do anything about it,apart from nursing it home.
Even the best driver can t drive faster than his car goes.Not even Darth Stigious.
A good driver is not holding back to discuss all the flaws a car has, with his team. If it needs more downforce at front or back, if it bumps, or is too soft,understeer or oversteer,is “wobbly” etc.
Tha car just sets the parameters,in which the driver can steer it safely.If he crosses those parameters, its all over anyway
I think you’d have to say that a good car cannot make a bad driver look good. But a bad car can make a good driver look bad.
You could also say the driver needs to earn himself the right to a good car in order to get the performance he wants.
And with regard to the “down-to-the-wire finish three years on the trot” comment, it’ll be four years on the trot if it happens this year. People seem to forget that 2006 went down to the wire as well – although Schumacher would’ve needed to win and Alonso to not score, so the odds were against him. But it was a down-to-the-wire finish nonetheless.
daft question really.
Senna / Anyone
Schumacher / Irvine.
Schumacher / Barrichello.
Alonso / Piquet.
Alonso / Fisichella.
Villenueve / Frentzen
Prost / Hill.
Senna / Anyone
Hill / Coulthard
All were in the same car, and all dominated the other driver. Simple.
Yes it does say Senna twice. and i nearly mentioned him 3 times just for good measure
I’D STILL SAY IT’S A 70:30 OR MORE LIKELY A 60:40 CAR TO DRIVER RATIO WHEN IT COMES TO A WINNING PERFORMANCE IN F1 RACING!!!
Back to 05 and 06, Renault was that good thanks to Michelin. See what happened after they left F1.
Guess Lewis is a natural but he seems to lack dedication this year. Maybe he became champ to fast?
Driver makes the difference! Remember Senna at Donington?
I have to butt in. I believe a lot of it is down to the car. Each F1 driver is supremely talented and very quick. It’s just that others through history of had a bit more bravery, guts and talent to force a car round a bend.
If you could have two differently built F1 cars attack a simple corner at top speed, there’s not much difference made in the drivers ability but you’ll see each and every car clinging on differently doing different speeds leading to gaps between the cars performance over different parts of the track.
Where as if you got two good drivers like Lewis and Alonso to attack the same simple corner at top speed in a production car you’d probably find one man faster, and that would be down to pure skill and talent alone. It’s impossible to tell.
When Shumacher won his titles, he had the best car, so did Kimi, Alonso, Lewis and now Jenson this year.
As if Webber and Vettell and who ever else would have the slightest chance if Mclaren, Ferrari, BMW and Renault hadn’t screwed up their cars so badly. Next year normal service will resume I guarantee that.
The car sets the limit of what is possible.
It’s upto the driver to find that limit.
The difference between a really good driver and an average one is probably only about 5-10% of the limit of the cars performance in perfect conditions.
Sort of the same as contemporary music, isn’t it? Some unknown guy writes a hit song, some fantastic but anonymous session musicians play it perfectly, but Miss White Trash Beautiful 2009 with more makeup than clothes on gets all the credit for lipsincing it because she can only sing offtune, and doing some sort of amateurish little lapdance on stage. Or for falling off the stage, if she has a ‘habit’.
Frank W once said that ‘the other’ Schumacher was good only if the car was perfect, while JPM was excellent at making the best of a bad car, but got nowhere in a good car. QED on the track, I think.
In IRL and A1GP everyone has/had the same car, but even then there are huge differences in expertise between teams. It’s never just about the driver I mean. He’s a sort of funnel at the end of a complex process, but he’s certainly not the whole process as such. The driver is just the most personal and prosaic focuspoint for the public. Like a singer in a band.
No…They have ruined F1 for this year, there is no doubt about it. Last season F1 was actually enjoyable to watch, and all the budget cutting, and crap like that is producing boring cars, that now all look the same. And next year they are proposing to fuel all cars to the end of race…again how boring is that? One of the main driver/team skills is pit-stops, and they are proposing to take that away…This years Championship has been badly screwed up…bring back the interest, and lose the irrelevant regulations…
back in the 80’s we can say driver makes the difference but now it is possible that machine really do make the difference with all the technology coming in.
before “man and machine”
now “man, machine and computer”
press “F1″ to make the car faster!!!
Agree to #30, the 09 rules suck! Must be part of the reason Mosley had to go. Most teams must be furious with the money wasted on stupid KERS and the ugly wings which made the 09 cars easy the ugliest racecars ever seen! They ‘d better wasted that money on summer testing, it was so much fun to spend few days at the Barcelona or Monza track during holidays.
this years regulations are rubish.
it has wreked the driving and the cars looks. lewis car is no good thanks to these stupid regulations.
Only one way to settle this. Me in a F1 car versus Senna in his peak in a bicycle. End result. The pilot. The greatest car in the world can never win unless there’s talent behind it.
Plus its easier to modify and tune a car than REinvest in finding and training a new driver.
Btw – if motorsports were as common as football, baseball or basketball you’d be finding racing savants.
“Steve S” is a genius when pointing out that the only way we can know is to put F1 stars in a reasonably priced car. It’s the ultimate answer to the question. Thanks “Steve S”.
However, the drivers always seem to point out that it is a team effort as well, more often than footballers pointing out that they could not have scored unless it was a team effort.
F1 drivers, like test pilots, need to understand the system so that they can talk to the mechanics to have it all set up properly for the race. The mechanics and analysts in turn also gives feedback on setup based on measured data. This “team effort” idea pays off during the race, telling whom to do what at a given time in relationship to other racers – seems like this is how races are won or lost in F1 the last 15 years.
F1 is more about making prudent pitstops and timing. The rest is automatic. See the start, and check back every 15-20 lap interval.
I think it is down to the car I admit ther are to many technical things on the cars these days which some teams have and others dont and which makes a team win. I could be wrong
Mark Webber’s victory proves that 95% of success is down to the car. So does Button’s inability to do anything about it when the weather is not that great…
personally.. I prefer they dumped the automatic clutch and went went back to the pedal. Would love to see some heel and toe. I think that would put a lot back in the drivers hands.
Does this argument really matter? The driver is one person, but each team has 100s of mechanics who play a part in the car. 300>1
obviously it is the car but the driver plays a part too
Jimmyfish. these drivers were in the era of team order. irvine and rubens were ordered to let schumacher past at some point or other. there is always a number 1 driver even if the teams dont like to admit it. and i think its 50/50 most of us here would strugle to get the car to do what they do, just look at how hammond was with the renault f1 car
Its both to a certain degree. You can have the best car but if you cant handle it then you wont win, however if you have the skill but lack the car, like Hamilton right now you cant win. You need both, you wont win with just one
So we’re agreed that the driver is still important in terms of setting up the car and bringing it home in one piece. If so, the proposition should have been: “Is being a Formula one driver still about driving a Formula one car?” You know, getting the bit between your teeth and making an epic battle for it, like Mansell was wont to do. Sure, Schumi won the lot. He started a whole new way of racing in F1 and raised the bar into the stratosphere. But I enjoyed seeing Mansell fight for every inch far better. At the end of the day, watching Schumi win again and again was just plain boring. I like to see knights in shining (or dented & rusting, even better) armour, not engineers in white labcoats.
So agree! Mansell was like Rossi! Making up for lost ground and go for it! That is so what is lacking in modern F1!
Remember Fuji 2008, Massa and Kubica in the final lap? It’s still there, once the leash is off… I could watch that lap forever and ever.
Btw: I’d love to see Rossi and Loeb in F1, wouldn’t you? And Danica, albeit for a different reason XP She says she doesn’t want to leave America though.
That was a great race, though messed by FIA penalties like most of the ‘08 (and ‘07) races were messed by the FIA (remember vividly as I watched the Belgium race from the Ferrari paddock and even there we were cheering for Lewis, who was given his incredible penalty later on). Rather see Danica in bikini than in F1 btw.
The thing is that a couple of drivers in the 80’s could get in the best car and Could not Qualify!
Now adays, anyone can get inside a Brawn and win!!!!
Because in the 80s there were crap teams with paying drivers. That is what Mosley wants back next yr with this new budget teams to fill up the grid. I do rate Button as a top driver though, one forget he was the runner up in 2004 and scored the most points in the 2nd half of the 2006 season.
I ALSO THINK IT IS THE DRIVER TO A CERTAIN EXENT BECAUSE SUTIL HAS A BAD CAR BUT HE CAN STILL RACE IN THE POINTS!
the car does help, but what makes lewis different was the fact that he won in a car that was not the ouright best car, the first time this has happened since hakkinen won it in a mclaren that was not as good as schumachers ferrari in ‘99. this is why i disagree with anybody that says schumacher was the best becuase all he did was win in the best car, or a car that was up to its eyeballs in electronics………’94. this is also why i HATE button, becuase all he did was win in the best car, and as soon as he doesnt have the best outright car, like in britain and germany, where did he finish?…………………
Forgot about Schumi winning in a twisty Benetton in 1995?? Or winning races in a dreadful Ferrari in 1996? If Schumi would have driven for McLaren it wouldn’t have taken him until 2000 to win the championship again but he had the guts to sign for Ferrari in those days!
Button has a smooth driving style that needs clean car and high track temp as he saves his tires, still his style is a pleasure to watch, as smooth as Stewart!
n F1 the best car in the world won’t prop up an average driver, but amazing drivers can sometimes work wonders with lesser kit.
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